2021-10-12 02:59:23

It is a  free opinion forum, apart from those discussions do not bother anyone. You do not like or bother that type of posts, you do not read them and that's it. nobody is forcing you.

2021-10-12 04:22:24

It's not free though. If it were free, I could say anything I wanted without staff intervention. Therefore some censorship already takes place, though admittedly, only that which compromises civility. This is just another thing that can be enacted to ensure that people don't lose their warm and fuzziis for one another.

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2021-10-12 13:11:59 (edited by defender 2021-10-12 13:30:22)

@Jayde
No I do not trust the staff to take care of the individual user issue, because experience shows that they can't/won't fast enough or with consistent levels of force, and many people (for instance you) skirt just under the line while still causing allot of unnecessary strife that IMO belongs somewhere else.
Less people clicking on those topics is obviously helpful yes, but it's clear to me now that most can't resist them selves, won't learn to do so any time soon, and even if they can, others still won't and we then have the spreading anger and grudges to other parts of the forum issue.


Sure, plenty of the previous topics have started out tame enough, though almost always spiraled into something stupid at some point along the way, but that's no longer the case generally over the last few months.  Now it's shit almost from the very start on basically every political topic.
So I don't think that at least a temp ban is unreasonable, and honestly should have been done months ago when it first started getting this bad.


Also, it isn't our job as a gaming forum to teach people how to be better citizens.  You can always go do that somewhere else if you want, or at least in a much more constructive and less divisive way.
In my opinion, political and religious debate never belonged here, and the only reason we think it does now is because we've become so numb to it.  Maybe at one point it would have worked, but I think we've shown quite clearly why we can't have nice things by now.
You might be all for pushing your version of a better world and getting into political (debates) Jayde, but if most of the userbase isn't interested in having charged rhetoric rammed down their throats twice weekly by all sides, and it keeps leaking into other topics and making the forum a more emotionally hostile place over all, than put your self in their shoes and you can see why at this point they might just want the shit gone period.  Deplatform the crusaders fighting a war you never wanted on your doorstep on all sides and it becomes almost a non issue.


TL:DR: This place never should have been your soap box to begin with, nor anyone else's.  People are getting tired of that type of shit, and if you're really surprised by that, than it just proves how selfish people like you have been in your misuse of this site for spreading your various messages.  People get enough of this crap everywhere else, we don't need it here as well.

2021-10-12 13:57:13

+100 on that last if I could. You'll just have to settle with +1.

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2021-10-12 15:07:09

I mean, everybody knows everybody else's political opinions now anyways. If we ban political discussions, it won't stop the animosity from leaking into other topics, people will just take indirect shots at other members without directly mentioning politics thinking they're being clever.

2021-10-12 15:17:11

Honestly it's hard to say. Depending on how you look at it, banning political and religious discussions seems like a good idea on the surface, but other times it seems like it would just make things worse.

2021-10-12 15:24:06

There is only 1 way to find out. Let the banning commence!

2021-10-12 15:28:16 (edited by Lucas1 2021-10-12 15:28:57)

This reminds me of when Brad just would. not. leave. for a long time even though he wanted to, until I gave him the suggestion of randomizing his email, or whenever anybody else asks for their account to be deleted or banned so they can't come back. Everybody just wants the decision to be taken out of their hands because apparently we're all children and we just can't help ourselves and please can we have jus one cookie before dinner?

Overall my opinion on this is that I would support it if the administrators and moderators were the ones proposing it, if they felt that it's too much work to keep up the moderation of those topics. Since they do not seem to feel that way, I see no reason for those discussions to be banned. The biggest issue seems to be a mounting level of internal resentment bubbling up steadily, but as I said I don't think banning political discussions would just magically alleviate that. I suppose though that mods could become more strict about bringing inflammatory subject matter into unrelated topics.

2021-10-12 16:22:55

@Lucas1
you're right that some animosity is still going to stick around between longtime rivals, but I am hoping that this will result in less flareups so that for most of those people, things will fade over time.

2021-10-12 16:26:52

It's less about having the decision taken out of your hands and more about quieting down a subject that won't do much good. How many of these have ended in a, "you know what, you're right, I'm changing my view on this." It happens, but it's rare"

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2021-10-12 17:48:55

I think a more appropriate response to this issue - which is, in fact, an issue, and I recognize that - is for us, as a staff team, to ensure that we come down harder on people who are jerks when talking about politics. Because here's the thing. Not everyone who does it is pushy, and not every person who's pushy or loud or abrasive one time is that way every time (present company definitely included here, because yes, I recognize that I have been part of the problem). I would be in favour of a formal (or even informal) amendment to the rules which mentions that we'll be harsher toward people talking about sensitive subjects (politics and religion in particular), and that might cut down on the drama if people know they can't be idiots just because their blood is up. Again, self included here. I have no desire to flout this edict by any means.

So no, Defender, I'm afraid I disagree with most of your points and most of your reasons. I do, in fact, think that most of this should fall to the community directly (staff team needs to do better squashing this when it comes up, users need to be better about not saying or doing stupid things on certain subjects). I do not think that just shutting off a topic of discussion is in any way healthy, not when we have alternatives that would work, and not when enacting this "solution" doesn't actually solve any problems directly. You generally don't get to put the real world in neat separate little boxes, after all...and heck, this is just a forum. Imagine how you'd feel if you were out with your coworkers and a political discussion sprang up, because surprise surprise, it can happen.

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2021-10-12 18:14:44

And in this day and age, if you still wanna be friends with the person, you just politely say that you'd rather not talk about it. There is no room for disagreement in political discussions these days. Sure, by deflecting like that, you kind of give the impression that you swing the other way, but it isn't like coming right out with it.

The staff team does kinda need to be better at being present tbh, because they haven't really been of late. And you can say real life, and that's true enough, but some point, you need to either be present or walk away and make room for someone who can be. Otherwise, we have the web masters all over again, but for the moderation side of things.

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2021-10-12 18:51:32

I'm kind of with Jayde on this one. As much as it seems quite harsh, perhaps it would be far more effective to crack down hard on incivility. This has been bothering me. If people can't help but resort to name calling when their blood boils at political matters, how are they going to react when things get rough around here again on some other topic? So, I think it might be best to use the political topics to demonstrate who can't keep their cool, and dispense with them as a manner of speaking. Honestly, each of us are sitting in probably comfortable chairs at our keyboards. We can stand to stop, think, and research if necessary. I  think it would be far more productive to handle those who are causing the strife in the political topics.

I have a website now.
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C++: The object-oriented programming language of a pagan deity" -- The Red Book
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2021-10-12 19:09:44

GCW, that's precisely my point. It's easy to either not get involved by just not speaking up, or, if questioned directly, to simply say that you don't really want to get into it. If you can do that face to face with virtually no time to think, then arguably I think it's reasonable to ask people here to do the same thing when considering whether or not they want to reply to someone else's post.

The important distinction I draw here is that no one, absolutely no one, is being drawn into these topics against their will. That is not a reason and it's not an excuse. If you commit to being a part of a topic, then you can't claim that the topic creator, or someone else within the thread, made you do it. Maybe your impulse control is bad. That's not our problem. Maybe you're spinning your wheels and just needed to lash out. Again, not our problem. That's life for you. We should not just shut off a topic of discussion because it yields a higher-than-average chance that some users will sometimes overreact. Again, it's like teaching your kid how to share by taking their favourite toy away; it's counterproductive at best.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
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2021-10-12 19:14:30

Well, you shouldn't teach kids to share because adults don't share. If they do, they learn not to quick enough when someone damages or breaks something. Either that, or they become a push-over.

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2021-10-13 00:50:07 (edited by defender 2021-10-13 00:51:59)

@Jayde
I still reject the idea that politics is important to this forum or that rejecting it is wrong, and that only some political topics end badly here, but I'm willing to try it your way for a while Jayde, and find out if it works.  Lets see what the rest of the users say.
My immediate thought is that some of the mods will let their political bias come through in their decisions, leading to even more problems, and that dedication to improvement will fade after the first few weeks.
But, I'd like to be proven wrong.

2021-10-13 01:45:01 (edited by Ethin 2021-10-13 01:45:44)

@66, I still haven't seen any evidence to prove that the mods have allowed political bias to interfere with their competency as administrators and moderators of discussions. Just baseless claims. So I think that we'll be fine in that particular area.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2021-10-13 02:11:01

Something I've learned from trying to police communities that don't welcome critiques or with people that play favoritism. Either find the good where it is, or make your own community.
Its not our business that people act like children. There are probably children on this forum. Not probably, most definitely. And unfortunately, a lot of parents raise their children to be bootlickers. On the other side of the equation, many people think its their role to save every individual or they just can't agree to disagree.
I just engage with what I like. I'm too damn old to be wasting time on frivolous garbage.

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2021-10-13 03:22:17

They're gonna do what they want anyway. This was never about what the users want, and it never will be.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
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2021-10-13 03:58:23

@68, LOL nice signature.
@69, That's not always the case.

2021-10-13 05:15:56

I can't think of a time that what we wanted made any difference. It may have taken longer, but they got what they wanted in the end.

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2021-10-13 12:28:13

Mod actions influenced by political bias? Oh please, if that were the case, GCW would have long, long since been permabanned. Stop crying wolf when there's nothing there.

I used to be a knee like you, then I took an adventurer in the arrow.

2021-10-13 16:41:07

@72, eh, it wouldn't be the first time members of this forum have accused the mods of nonsense that they know they have absolutely no evidence for. Nor would it be the first time members of this forum have accused the mods of never listening to the community -- despite there being evidence to the contrary. This community appears to have a major, major problem with trusting anybody in authority, and I imagine that even if the mods were replaced with a team that did everything the community wanted they'd still not be trusted and they'd still be accused of nonsense.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-10-14 02:35:43

Only one way to find out. All the mods here are fired, we're creating a new team. Can I be the leader?