2021-11-09 10:18:51

Yeah, I'm interested in seeing that too.

2021-11-09 11:35:47

O that, hmm...I believe it has been posted here before? or was it in the YSR discord only? honestly, I can't remember anymore.
I wish I could reply to that thread, but I heard I can't since I didn't subscribe to the thread, I guess it's better that way. Again, it's obvious those people know more about linux accessibility than us, it'd be more productive if we collaborate, not argue on technikalities, however it seemns they don't see anything but orca, so meh, scrue it at this point...untill something changes that is.
I mean, valid criticism is not ever considered insulting in my book, but that was nothing more than that, in the context it was given.
anyways, I hope I'm linking to the right thing:
https://www.spinics.net/lists/blinux/msg23601.html
here's the beginning message of the thread, you go by date next to read other replyes and such.

2021-11-09 12:16:06

Lol.

Message wrote:

    OK this is just one example you cite, but what the hell is object navigation? What the hell is an object? I had to try that once and was nothing but confused by it. Flat review works, and although it's not perfect, it does work well enough for me to know what is in a window that is not being read out loud right away, and I can either click a control with mouse emulation or even route the real mouse pointer to it and click it, again with mouse emulation, or God forbid, a real mouse, or even a trackball if I so desire. Now that's good stuff right there. No, it's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good for what it does.

2021-11-09 15:19:54

Narrow minded gits.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2021-11-09 17:15:11 (edited by Dan Gero 2021-11-09 17:20:29)

So at this point, I seriously think it would be good to find another name for the screen reader. Not only is it personally hard to remember for me and as such probably a good number of people, but apparently there are already a lot of big projects with the exact same name. This isn't like NVDA where it sounds really close to Nvidia, and sometimes has the same acronym. There are projects that have the exact same name and the exact same idea behind the name. If you look up Yggdrasil on Github, you will find multiple hits.
It's not a bad name. What's bad is when the name is so frustrating that it's easier to call it "That Screen Reader" or "That Linux Screen Reader" or "That Linux Screen Reader That Isn't Orca". I find myself doing that a lot. Plus, I don't think a huge company would be too happy to find out that someone's using their official name for their own product. Plus, from the perspective of a starter translator, that name is going to be a nightmare to try and translate or even pronounce in other languages.It's hard for me to pronounce and remember in English, which I'm a native speaker of.
Even YSR or LSR seems good enough. Like I said before, sometimes simple is just the way to go.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
TWITCH
YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2021-11-09 18:27:17

@Dan Gero, it's iggdrasil, as in igg, dra, seel. To me this gripe on the name of it isn't all that bad, just give it some time, and it will probably sync in. To me, it's all in the matter of what you say, even the screen reader commentary has alot of names. Like commentary screen reader, Jieshuo, Talkman, CSR, even the commentater. And if you really want to know the name of commentary. Welcome to C O M M E N T A R Y S C R E E N R E A D E R! No joke, it used to say that in older versions and that's how I learned to spell commentary lol. smile Just give it some time, and I'm sure yu won't forget the name smile God I miss those versions of commentary.

My chiptune archive is https://chiparchive.com/files/.
And the new sync key is
BQHTXTVRWGMFSI3BI3ZVQ4TGEOGNJJO64
Twitter is https://twitter.com/thechiptunearc1?lang=en

2021-11-09 18:57:52

actually, we are seriously thinking about doing that, since we have problems getting a domain with yggdrasil, it's actually kinda expensive. We're doing the custom domain thingy because we want to be able to have an organisation email where people could contact us, plus not be restricted by the github pages static site thing, we will probably make it easier for us to post news and so on, plus the community will then be able to get notified, either through rss feeds, mail or whatever else. Plus, perhaps we're gonna have a forum one day, so this has to happen eventually.
I enabled github discussions on the prototype repo, be ready to vote soon, when it will appear.
btw, @Dan Gero, we included blab in there, though as an acronim, blind linux accessibility bridge, that seemns more cool than the other aspect of the word.

2021-11-09 19:22:21

LOL anyone who says Linux in its current state is more accessible than windows is delusional unless they're comparing Orca to Narrator, which is a horrible, horrible benchmark.

You ain't done nothin' if you ain't been cancelled
_____
I'm working on a playthrough series of the space 4X game Aurora4x. Find it here

2021-11-09 19:28:25

@bgt lover, I still think the name is what made the screen reader so special, and that you should give it some time, as it isn't even the second prototipe for people to start actually recognising the name and what it means.

My chiptune archive is https://chiparchive.com/files/.
And the new sync key is
BQHTXTVRWGMFSI3BI3ZVQ4TGEOGNJJO64
Twitter is https://twitter.com/thechiptunearc1?lang=en

2021-11-09 19:32:24

@56
Actually, It's yggdrasil, With y, Not i.

2021-11-09 20:24:09

Please don't change the name. I doubt anyone is going to file trademark disputes or anything like that. There are lots of projects on GH with the same name.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-11-09 20:31:22 (edited by Dan Gero 2021-11-09 20:34:42)

I think Blind Linux Accessibility Bridge is a wonderful idea.
I think a lot of people are looking at this from an English speaker's perspective. Trust me, it might be OK pronouncing it in English, but for other languages it's going to be a nightmare.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
TWITCH
YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2021-11-09 20:47:23

Actually, I just heard a cool suggestion that's even better than Blab. It's unique, it's not really taken on Github, it's short, it's easy to pronounce, and it'll be easier for me to translate into other languages such as Japanese since you usually write names in Katakana. The name suggestion was Vocem, which apparently is Latin for voice.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
TWITCH
YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2021-11-09 21:13:45

BLAB is a stupid name. #JustSaying

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2021-11-09 21:18:06

So I guess I'm in the minority here, but I do actually see their point, fallacious comparison of non-AT-related activities on other OS's aside. To be clear, what we have currently *is* terrible, you'll get no argument from me there. However, it would seem that at this point, figuring out how Orca works (and documenting it) would be a more productive use of time, rather than rewriting *everything* (including AT-SPI bindings!) in Rust right from the get-go. A rewrite of Orca may well be necessary, and if so, having a good understanding of how it works would put you in a great position to make a document/statement outlining exactly what needs to change, and why. You could then, presumably, have the (very few) other developers who work on Linux AT on board, which would be better for everyone. At the very least, it would be a learning experience, since you guys seem to be sort of winging it at the moment. Just my two cents, and I do wish you luck with the project if it continues.

We move in circles, balanced all the while on a gleaming razor's edge
A perfect sphere, colliding with our fate...this story ends where it began.

2021-11-09 21:37:07 (edited by juan reina 2021-11-09 21:39:33)

@Ethin I agree, blab doesn't sound good. Yggdrasil has mith along with it, and it's still translatable. ユグドラシル

My chiptune archive is https://chiparchive.com/files/.
And the new sync key is
BQHTXTVRWGMFSI3BI3ZVQ4TGEOGNJJO64
Twitter is https://twitter.com/thechiptunearc1?lang=en

2021-11-09 22:14:14

thanks for your opinions, the pole will be up shortly, so everyone, please cast your votes. I will post here again when it becomes active. Or even better, follow the github discussion section of the yggdrasil-prototype to find about it first.
@65, it's not a reinventing of the wheel because we want, we think we discovered america and want to show it to the entire world or something. It happens because we believe rewriting it from scratch may be beneficial both from a performance standpoint and to the a11y stack itself, since we might discover fundamental issues with how things are done now, things orca took for granted all those years.
Actually, I'm giving this example a lot lately, but what's happening with YSR and orca is in many ways similar to what happened with commentary and talkback on android, jaws and nvda, etc, a necessary reinventing of the wheel.
Why I don't contribute to orca? Simple, first I don't understand orca's code and logic, things are undocumented enough and coded in such a way that I'd spend more time trying to piece it all together from orca source code than wandering on my own and trying things untill it works, that's why we decided it's best to try it our way, and only if we can't, read orca source code...if we can find the relevant section that is. We are more baffled by the source of orca than the atspi C api and documentation we have in the man pages, and that's saying something.
I mean, we would surely love to contribute to orca if the code was a bit more self-explaining and well structured, or if there would exist some kind of document describing the principles behind which the orca screen reader took form, we coded, prodded and pulled untill it worked is not a valid enough explanation. It would be enough if there were mentors telling us where we could find what parts of orca, what does a particular directory contain, how it relates to everything else. Hell, even a document describing that would be enough, but we don't have it.
So, in stead of either pane-stakingly figuring it out our selfs or waiting for someone to explain how it all works, we decided we'll try our hand at this and see what comes out, it appears to work so far.
again, the time of truth is now, we incourage everyone who wants their opinions to matter in the final decision to cast their votes, this hard crossing can't be taken without a bit of help from the community. Remember, the winner will have more of a weight in the final name than everything else.

2021-11-09 22:20:44

Like I said, Vocem is significantly easier in every immaginable way, it's accurate to the purpose of a screen reader, and it's original because nobody's really used it. Yggdrasil is just the opposite, and I'm sticking by that. Why are a good number of you so steadfast on keeping this difficult name, especially after BGT Lover just stated they're having trouble securing a domain that's reasonably priced?

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
TWITCH
YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2021-11-09 22:41:32

Oh, and also…
イグドラシル
ボシム
For anyone who can read those Japanese words out loud, I invite you to do so, then come back here and tell me which word was easier to say. Might be because Japanese isn't my native language, but it took me like 5 seconds to read the first word. The second word was much easier to both speak and write.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
TWITCH
YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2021-11-09 22:43:26

I don't see what's so hard about Yggdrasil. I mean if it has to change for logistical reasons that's one thing, but I don't get the griping about it. I can see the URl as a sticking point. But I'm sure you could find ygsr.org or ygsr.net or something.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2021-11-09 22:51:35 (edited by juan reina 2021-11-09 22:57:04)

@Dan Gero Because, Yggdrasil has an actual meaning behind it, other than just being a voice or another word for  the word talk. Blab is blind linux accessibility bridge, but on the surface, what do you think it means? The screen reader is speaking, talking, no, just blabbing to the user. It's like someone saw the name Yggdrasil, and just stripped compleet meaning from the screen reader.

My chiptune archive is https://chiparchive.com/files/.
And the new sync key is
BQHTXTVRWGMFSI3BI3ZVQ4TGEOGNJJO64
Twitter is https://twitter.com/thechiptunearc1?lang=en

2021-11-09 22:58:24

and the romanisation is ygg dor ah sheeru

My chiptune archive is https://chiparchive.com/files/.
And the new sync key is
BQHTXTVRWGMFSI3BI3ZVQ4TGEOGNJJO64
Twitter is https://twitter.com/thechiptunearc1?lang=en

2021-11-09 23:36:32

I have a japanese voice for my NVDA and it can't read the words, sorry. Would love to give it a go, cause I am learning

My discord: the_real_amethyst
Join my accessible Pokémon discord server

2021-11-09 23:48:53

I will not push this any farther. I can see I'm not going to get anywhere by continuing this discussion. My opinion isn't going to change, nor will anybody elses. Let's let the votes speak for themselves. I do have one last thing to say though.
Linux has a widespread perception of being convoluted and difficult for the average user. I'm not saying I believe it's convoluted, but that's how it's perceived. The lack of easy to use GUI and many developers keeping away from Linux because it's not profitable because most people use Windows doesn't help this perception. What definitely won't help with that is the name of the screen reader. Take a look at this.

  • Jaws=Job-Access-With-Speech

  • NVDA=Non-Visual-Desktop-Access

  • CSR=Commentary-Screen-Reader

All of these acronyms are pretty easy, even when extended. There's many reasons why ZDSR didn't take off as much as it could have. The extended title is not even close to the main reason, but I bet it doesn't help its case any. Also, if you're going to say the acronym Blab is stupid and childish, the same has to be said about Jaws as well. #justsaying
As an admittedly mediocre open-sourced and anti-close-sourced advocate (no that opinion has not and will not ever change) I'd like to try to get the mainstream to adopt Linux as a daily computer driver. That means it's essential that we make the operating system easier to use. I feel like the current name of this screen reader will not improve the current perception of Linux, and that it's doing a disservice to the many of us who can't even pronounce the name, let alone write it. Trust me, I'm definitely not the only one. I know quite a few people who say the same, most of whom aren't on this forum.
At the end of the day though, it's not my choice. It is my opinion though, and I'm not afraid to state it. I'm not getting anywhere with it though, and I recognize a lost cause when I see one, so I'm done here.

Discord: dangero#0750
Steam: dangero2000
TWITCH
YOUTUBE and YOUTUBE DISCORD SERVER

2021-11-09 23:50:23

Blab is a meh name. If you really wanted to change the name, but to something which also has a mythological bent, you could call it Hermes,  or name it after one of Odin's ravens (Huginn and Muninn).

#FreeTheCheese
"The most deadly poison of our times is indifference. And this happens, although the praise of God should know no limits. Let us strive, therefore, to praise Him to the greatest extent of our powers." - St. Maximilian Kolbe