2022-01-31 18:46:54

Hey all
I just wanted to write down this discussion to vent a little about my current situation on one hand, and on the other hand to hear your opinions on the subject.
On May 2nd 2021 I received my first vaccination dose, it was Fizer's and since I got my Vaccination I've never been infected with the novel Corona virus. I was ok since then, then I got my second dose on July 22nd 2021 and from there to the third dose (which is called the Covid booster dose) that I got recently on January 10th 2022 which is exactly 3 weeks now, and both the ladder and the second one were Fizer's as well. Last week and particularly on Tuesday or Wednesday around, I got very sick, I had a high feever, severe throat pain, dry cough, chest pain and shortness of breath, not to mention muscle achs and fatigue. I was diagnosed with the Corona virus by the Ministry of Health, and since then I'm isolated in my room to the time I'm writing this post. I'm now better in terms of fatigue and muscle achs, they've even almost completely went away, chest pain and cough improved, throat pain keeps attacking from time to time unlike before where it was constant, but I've developed new simptoms today which are actually hard, burning sinuses, nasal congestion and smelling problems. Of course I'm not writing this to whine about how Covid-19 disease is kicking my ass these days, but to share this experience with you as some of you may have gone through the same thing or have an opinion on how effective these vaccines are. It was surprising to me because it's the first time I get infected, and seeing that I got the boost dose 3 weeks ago and that I've never had an infection even while I didn't take the vaccine, this one is hard on me although I should've been immune for having 3 vaccinations already. Is what I've contracted along to many in my territory one of the new strains of the virus, so vaccinations are useless against it? I heard that vaccines are effective against new strains of corona such as Omicron. How effective do you think the vaccines overall are against the novel Covid-19? Could it have been worse for me after infection if I hadn't taken the third dose in the first place? What do you think?

Kind regards!

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2022-01-31 19:13:28 (edited by Dark 2022-01-31 19:14:16)

Muhammad wrote:

Could it have been worse for me after infection if I hadn't taken the third dose in the first place?

Yes, yes it could.

the point of a vaccine is not to stop you getting the disease, but to insure that your body has the correct antigens to tackle the disease when you do get it, that's why in Britain there's such a push to get as many people vaccinated as possible, especially with omicron being far more communicable than the original Covid strain.

Yes, you could also have got it and recovered, many people did, but many more people didn't.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2022-01-31 19:20:54

It's also worth noting that the vaccine may have prevented you from experiencing long Covid symptoms. Long Covid is scary as fuck to me, and effects more than just old people. I'd rather not have a lost sense of taste or smell, reduced lung capacity, or brainfog thanks, even if those symptoms aren't permanent. They could still last several months.

2022-01-31 19:35:47

Yeah. It's not 100% effective against infection from Omicron but it's still pretty much 100% protection against you die slowly and in extreme agony in the hospital.  I don't know about you, but I'm not for dying extremely slowly and in agony.

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2022-01-31 19:49:44 (edited by Muhammad Hajjar 2022-01-31 19:50:24)

@4 yup I definitely agree with you, and with how important those vaccines are to protecting our lives. The severity of the symtoms for me post infection is what surprised me while this wasn't far from when I took my third dose.

Kind regards!

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2022-01-31 21:01:46

Okay, so here's my take, though it's more of me venting a little and not any real advice:

My mom, I swear, is convinced that if we get Covid, we are going to die slowly and painfully in the hospital. Both of us have some health problems, but neither of us are super unhealthy either. In my case, I have an autoimmune condition, and she has diabetes. Both of us take our meds as prescribed and so far, knock on wood, we have very few problems if any. Yet, she is still so scared that Covid is a death plague or something.

My dad is kind of the opposite. He's healthy, and while he has a bit of a sinnical atitude toward masks and vaccines, he does see value in them. He also is of the opinion that Covid infections do suck and are to be avoided, but they rarely kill. As he so delicately put it one time: "Yes, people are going to die. It sucks. But the people who die from Covid are the people who are going to die from the flu or a bad cold. They're already weak and not healthy, and yeah I certainly don't like the idea of anyone dying, but you do expect those kind of people to fall hard when a pandemic like this happens. It's just how the ball rolls ya know?"

The two of them act completely different when they find out someone they know has gotten Covid. While she's never come out and said it, I honestly believe my mom's always worrying that we'll be next. My dad, by contrast, keeps a more level head, but if he knows the person is vaccinated, he does voice concerns that the vaccines don't work as well as advertised, or that nobody really knows the truth as much as they clame to.

I'm not trying to spread rumors about or shit talk my family or anything because I love them all. But it's just a mess right now trying to deal with them and to get through covid discussions. I can see where my mom's fears come from, even though I think she could relax a bit. I can see where my dad's skepticism comes from, and I also can get his point that people are going to die and we shouldn't wind ourselves up about every single statistic, but all the same I think he could be a little more sympathetic to people who feel differently.

The problem I have is that everyone has their own perception of the truth, and each person seems to believe they know the truth better than everyone else. But for me anyway, finding the real truth amongst a bunch of contradictory human perceptions is my ultimate goal, and as you can imagine, that's insanely difficult. Because of this, I don't know if I should be afraid of Covid, skeptical of vaccines or what.

These days, I've settled into a cautious, but not overly fearful atitude. I'm careful about wearing masks and not going out in situations I deme unsafe, but I don't shut myself at home either. And I don't mind getting vaccinated, but I do consider the vaccines as a layer of protection and not magical imunity. That's how I handle a lot of things though; I settle into a cautious but relaxed middle-of-the-road atitude. Part of me thinks it's the only sane thing to do, but another part of me worries that it's a bit too relaxed or something.

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2022-01-31 22:19:43

@6
You're thinking about this wrong.  There is this thing called a cost-benefit analysis.  The cost of the vaccine is maybe a day of illness and no money.  The benefit of the vaccine is protection against death and long-term health issues.  Death is worth -infinity.  Even if death without the vaccine is 1%, 1%*-infinity is still a total loss condition.  How good the vaccine is doesn't matter; in this instance what matters is if it's good at all.  Death without vs. with the vaccine is something like a 10x difference.  It's not just 1%.  But anything that falls in the category of "and then you are dead" is an instant loss condition.  You might choose not to care if the intervention is expensive, whether that be money or quality of life or time spent, and for many people death isn't worth -infinity.  The vaccine is barely more expensive than going to get fast food for most people, however, and for the rest it's as expensive as a cold.  For most people, hopefully including yourself, death is significantly more expensive than cold.

There is no binary truth here.  The problem is that everyone is bad at probability and collapses to a true/false dichotomy.  I am not good enough to do Bayes's theorem in my head, but even a basic understanding of the idea of conditional probability will get you far if you want to "find truth" in these situations.  However in this case you can just do it as finding the probability of death without vaccine vs. the probability with vaccine and go "wow that's a lot of protection", so mostly this is an easy case.

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2022-01-31 23:34:53

Why do people equate vaccines to preventing you from acquiring a disease or infection? Last time I checked, a vaccine was defined as "a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease", not "a substance that prevents a pathogen from infecting its host".

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2022-02-01 01:00:53

@8
because that's how we actually sell vaccines to the public.

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2022-02-01 01:43:51 (edited by Ghost 2022-02-01 01:44:28)

So several things.  First, the fact that you wern't sick enough to require going to the ER  shows that the vaccine worked for you.  Second, vaccines do provide a resistance to infection,  so for example, the current MRNA three dose series  is reported to be about 75% resistance to infection.  But the main benefit is protection from severe disease which is still quite high.  Though this changes quite a lot though. The Chinese and Russian vaccines are quite ineffective compared to the vaccines available in most developed countries. Most countries using them stopped because they had healthcare workers and the public flooding into the ICU even though they were vaccinated.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2022-02-01 01:52:00

Guys, please. If simply nature could save your life, why do governments push this so far that they talk even about the 4th shot these days? Wake the hell up. Some companies let you stay and work only if you got the third and the fourth dose as well. Some universities don't let you enter in, unless you are fully vaccinated. What if you've already gone through all of this and your immunity is above like 500-600, only by nature and the fact that your immun system reacted to the fact that you got the illness? This is hilarious. It's all about money and the fact that most of this is a worldwide experiment. The virus exists, that's for sure. Even I am vaccinated, but only because I want to go abroad in the near future. But it's hilarious how many stuff people believe without questioning them.

2022-02-01 02:03:36

@11, I'm not sure what point your trying to make. For one, immunity can't be measured like you are thinking (there is no set "scale" or formula), and two, Hurd immunity is a pipe dream. There are over 150 different coronaviruses and well over 10-12 species that COvID-19 can mutate to alone. Its also deadly enough that the immune system cannot fend for itself 100-percent.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2022-02-01 02:38:43

If a vaccine is made, people usually experiment with it for years. For, years. As soon as the covid vaccine was invented, governments obliged people to take it. Why? Why governments oblige people to take the vaccine is they don't oblige themselves to do so? In Hungary, almost everyone must do it but in the parliament it's not a requirement. Hmm, maybe do they know something up there?

2022-02-01 02:51:35

Destranis, our opinions and facts aren't welcome. COVID is very very low on my list of priorities. If you want to take the vaccine even though there's a 99% chance of survival, go right ahead, but by doing so, you accept full responsibility for any unwanted side effects. What I will not accept is being shunned by society because I chose not to take an experimental vaccine. This reminds me of Nazi Germany. If you won't hire me because I'm not vaccinated, I'll find somewhere else to work. If you won't associate with me because you believe I'm a walking doomsday machine because I'm not vaccinated, oh well, there are tons of other people to talk to. I'd still like to know what everyone is so afraid of. If you're vaccinated, you're safe, right? Why should you care what everyone else does? It won't impact you.

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2022-02-01 02:51:54

Here we go, I'll make the ultrapopcorn

2022-02-01 03:32:51

IDK, my workplace offerred a $1k bonus to employees who get the booster. Vaccination rates among employees shot up from 70% to 85% and rising. IDK where they got the funding for that from.

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2022-02-01 03:33:48

@13, that's not true. Some parliaments/legislatures around the world have mandated it. Our parliament will fully mandate it this month as they are public sector workers I believe

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2022-02-01 04:00:29

@16
The "if our workers get covid we will lose more than that" fund.

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2022-02-01 05:24:10

@13, the experimentation could not take place for years and years because we *didn't* have years to waste, and the mutations of COVID-19 prove that point. There are no side effects to the MRNA vaccines, simple as that. Every side effect that people have suffered *after* taking the vaccine are due to prior existing health conditions.
@14, here we go again with your misinformation campaign. Sigh.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2022-02-01 05:42:08 (edited by Ghost 2022-02-01 05:43:46)

OK so  to be clear the Pfizer did get FDA full approval. That is considered the gold standard for safety. There isn't anything above that level of approval.  So it technically isn't under EUA anymore and can be mandated to the military etc. The difference between EUA and full approval is submission of a six month postmarketing study to the FDA. Most of those years were shaved off because of faster processing by the FDA
  Now 14, as for your argument that vaccinated people have nothing to fear. Look at it like this. Vaccination against covid is like going into a shootout with a kevlar vest.  The more unvaccinated people there are, the more likely the higher concentration of coronavirus in the air.  Remember vaccination/kevlar vests don't protect you  100%, so the more virus means the more likely a breakthrough infection will happen and get through.  That is one reason.  Also the 99% survival rate doesn't account for people with lasting side effects or long covid.  For example people who lost senses, have perminent heart damage, or had to have amputations. I would consider those far worse outcomes than dieing. Who will provide for these people? We have nearly a nonexistant social safety  net, so more than likely those people can't even take sick  days without being fired or  getting pay cuts. Second, in an area with a high number of unvaccinated people, more unvaccinated will catch covid, and have more severe outcomes.   Those people then go to the hospital and fill up all the intensive care beds, which you can see now across the country.  There are news articles of people looking for beds in 40 hospitals and not finding them, and then dieing because all of them were full of covid patients.  This has a profound impact, because it means for example, if you  get into a car accident you may not be able to be saved because all the beds might be full and you might die on the way to a far away one.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2022-02-01 07:13:14

@20, that, along with how fast Omicron spreads. I think last time I checked it was like 300 infections per week or something here in the US. Might be higher now.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2022-02-01 07:54:48

I'm pretty sure case counts  were  around 550k or so now. But the really bad part of this is the overflowing hospitals, transit and other services experiencing disruptions because staff is out sick etc.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2022-02-01 08:16:24

So, I got two doses of vaccine. I caught Omicron anyway (just a couple of weeks ago). Sore throat, laryngitis and body aches/fever, followed by worsening congestion, loss of most taste and smell, and a persistent, harsh chest cough. I became symptomatic sixteen days ago, and the only thing I've got left is a very occasional cough. Everything else is as right as rain.

Do I think I'd have been fine without the vaccine? Maybe; I'm reasonably healthy and not high-risk, but I didn't feel like taking chances.
Do I think the vaccine is helpful? Yes, there's no doubt of it. It lowers but doesn't eliminate risk of infection, and it lowers but does not eliminate the chance of a serious breakthrough infection. I'd rather not gamble.
After all, a 99% survival rate sounds good, until you realize that over 71 million Americans have gotten sick and over three quarters of a million of them are now dead. That's kind of a big deal no matter which way you slice it.

When I get back to Canada, and have been back for two or three weeks, I'm gonna get my booster. Why? Because I figure the one-in-a-million or so chance of serious vaccine complications is less of a concern than potentially getting Covid again. I'm not frightened, I'm not cowering in abject misery until I get my jab, so I won't have my choice characterized in that fashion by anyone. But I do think we've still got a bit of a ways to go before we've got this thing beat. We're getting there, and believe me, I'm as sick of all the restrictions as the next person. But we still have to do this right, and that manifestly does -NOT mean tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

Let's remember, too, that viruses mutate after they infect people. This means that the more people they infect, the more mutations will be created (many of them will be harmless, some may be dangerous). And I think it should go without saying that since vaccines lower but don't eliminate infections, a population that is unvaccinated and exposed to Covid-19 has a greater chance of causing a new mutation than does a fully vaccinated population.

And to any of you who are still peddling the fear narrative, I do want to ask you two questions:
First, if you think that the "government is trying to control us", what is the end goal?I'd like something evidence-based, please. I'm not just looking for Tucker Carlson-style mudslinging. What is the chain of events you believe will occur, or has already begun to occur, that would make "government control" a reality? While you ask this question, bear in mind two things. First, more progressive people want to encourage things like voting and community participation, and keeping everyone on lockdown actually works -against that. Second, voter suppression and fear are sort of the hallmarks of conservative thinking (and this isn't just America, this is everywhere), and thus, isolating people from what they normally do and where they normally go would fit more in line with their style of control. Consider those realities when you answer.
Second, and far more to the point: progressives in general want you to get vaccinated, largely because they believe that getting a population vaccinated is the best way to protect it (again, it's not perfect, but it does help). Conservatives have done everything they could, across the world, to try and sow doubt and skepticism about every part of this pandemic. Yet it is conservatives telling you that -progressives want to maintain this pandemic. Ask yourself this: who is actually benefiting most from the continuation of a pandemic?

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2022-02-01 09:07:38

@23, uh, don't you mean that viruses mutate? Last time I checked vaccines had no way of reproduction.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2022-02-01 10:42:27

@14
Nazi Germany? Really?
I usually make a point not to comment on these topics but you really do not know what you are talking about.
And I honestly find comments like yours highly disrespectful, because if it were really like Nazi Germany, you most likely wouldn't even be here to  talk about it.

Paul