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AudioGames.net Forum → Off-topic room → I'm digitally scared of microsoft
what if it activates the embrace, extend, extinguish process against linux? It already seams to have started. Wsl, the liux distro that microsoft made, the only thing left for wsl now is making us able to run the gui in an easier way than this current thing where you have to install x server and whatever. What are your thoughts on this?
That's absolutely great. I want WSL to get to properly run GUI's, and then I'll surely go ahead and use it a lot. It would be better than creating VM's, wouldn't it?
but then microsoft is gunna force us to abandon opensource software
@3 they can't. It has existed, exists, and will exist. How would they do that, in your opinion?
Yeah I don't think this will happen. Open-source is alive and well, not to mention that Microsoft has several open-source projects that are seen as integral to many developers (VsCode and Typescript mainly).
Nah, that will never happen. They have no actual way of forcing us to stop using open-source software, considering that they even have their own. So yeah - don't worry about that.
really? Like this new distro they made, couldn't they try to improve linux and encourage people to use there own, then abandon other linux distros and whatever?
It's their decision whether they want to use their own distro or move to other distros. Nobody can force people to stay on a specific distro.
but if microsoft adresses the weakpoints of said distros and makes features which are conveniant for people, then they might switch away.
WSL is mainly aimed at developers. I haven't figured out how to get Orca to work with it, and that's not really the point anyway. Microsoft can't force you to do anything. If we all wanted, we could decide one day to get rid of our Windows computers and they wouldn't care, because the vast majority of their customers are businesses paying for Microsoft 365 and Windows Server.
yeah well I'm just waiting for odilia to be released so I can jump to the world of linuxity
if you are afraid of such things happening to this degree, I recommend you just go and install something like ubuntu or even vanilla debian on your computer permanently, the a11y is not so bad you can't do your daily tasks, so just go try it I guess. Honestly though, I'm more afraid of linux them selfs dropping a11y support to such a low level it's practically off their lists entirely, I bet many linux distro devs, especially those who work at the desktop, don't know a thing about accessibility. Even if they do, they know it in the abstract, not enough to give us the a11y we need. This has steadily happened with gnome 3, then 4, it's not getting better, not really, not in any significant way.
Yes, microsoft may eventually produce more open source software, but yep, it means it can be mostly us who winn because we have the freedom to modify the code more or less. Don't like vscode because of the telemetry, sure, use vs codium, it has all that disabled even though you lose some functionality.
well I can't do that bgt, not right now. I'm already not liking the experience on a vm or wsl because some software don't want to compile, and that's because c++ doesn't want to install even after I do a sudo apt update and then an upgrade
Not being able to install C++ is nothing to do with whether it's a VM or not. I am 100% sure on this. Otherwise I'd not be able to work every day.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish requires some way to do the extinguishing. Maybe they can put a dent in Linux desktop if WSL gets good enough but 95% of Linux usage isn't related to desktop in the slightest and it's not like Linux Desktop is that great anyway. Frankly Microsoft doesn't want the sort of user who uses Linux by choice. From the perspective of running a tech company you're a nightmare.
If you look into how this worked in the 90s, it's not something they're set up to do anymore. They were able to do it with things like IE and Word because everything was closed-source and there was a different culture as well. it also took them like 10 years or something like that to do it. Unless we go back to the world of closed-source OSes and also desktop matters more than servers, it's just not feasible anymore. Microsoft lost in the end because that all changed, and now they probably have good intentions in this regard but more to the point they can either play nice with everyone else or fade into irrelevancy and they no longer have a third option. Even their attempt at a cloud provider basically fell short of what AWS and Google have to offer. Microsoft is busy playing around in the gaming and enterprise big corp llc spaces, and doing some stuff on the side to attract developers to their stuff; they're not a desktop company anymore as such, nor do they want to be. Windows is certainly still a big chunk of their revenue but they know that it just doesn't matter anymore, not unless you can enter the phone market, and they've learned the hard way they're not set up to do that. The reason we get WSL and Android support on Windows is that by doing so they can be the platform that does everything and double down on their competitive advantages over Apple, especially with respect to being open.
you know, software not wanting to compile is way, way far away from what you would hate on linux as a regular user, it's mostly app accessibility. Arguably, I'd say it's lots easier to compile linux apps from source than, say, windows, exactly because linux has been designed to allow you to do stuff to the computer that windows would frown upon, plus you have stuff like gnu autotools, cmake and all that good stuff. If c++ doesn't install, dk, did you try to google the error you're getting?
anyway, here's a command you could try
sudo apt install build-essential
even though you should have this package, it's weird that you don't honestly.
to check that the package works, type this
g++ --version
now, to compile an actual c++ program, type this in a file called cpp_test
#include<iostream>
#include<cmath>
#include<stdlib.h>
using namespace std;
//a point struct, to make this puny program more interesting because I'm bored
struct point{
float x;
float y;
};
int main() {
//typing it this way in order for it to be longer.
point p1;
p1.x=30;
p1.y=0;
point p2;
p2.x=0;
p2.y=30;//can you think from your mind what's the distance gonna be?
auto distance=sqrt((pow(abs(p2.x-p1.x), 2)+pow(abs(p2.y-p1.y), 2)));//hope I got the math right
//the grand print
cout<<"the distance between "<<"("<<p1.x<<", "<<p1.y<<")"<<" and "<<"("<<p2.x<<", "<<p2.y<<") "<<"is: "<<floor(distance);//I know I could perhaps write it better, but meh
return EXIT_SUCCESS;
}you compile it with this command, assuming you are in the same directory the cpp file is
g++ -o test cpp_test.cpp
then, if you didn't get any errors which is highly unlikely since I just wrote this in here, no compile step done before, type this to run your c++ program
./test
it should print...what? what does it print indeed? left as an exercise to the reader.
so yeah, way easier than typing hell knows how many msvc specific commands with very long and weird arguments just to compile a simple project, right? Luckily, gcc and g++ are also for windows, plus we have clang over there as well, just so you know, but that's neither here nor there. Thing is, it's way easier to build software for linux than anything else imho, that's not its weakness, it's one of its strong points actually.
Well I mean the difference is that Windows doesn't require you to compile your software *at all*. And also we can make binaries that work everywhere without melting our brains trying to figure out if our thing uses the common subset of reaching for some containerization solutions...
And also no one compiles their software by direct invocation of the C++ compiler anyway.
@14 wrote the perfect answer for your question, I'll leave mine in here for historical purposes or something, though you could still try to compile the c++ program to see if the commands I typed actually fixed the toolchain issues you were having.
@11:
Orca's not that bad, on my Arch box with Ratpoison I hardly have any issues, but that's a minimalistic setup not for everyone at all.
That being said, Orilia SR is gonna have to go some to match what Orca can do however
I installed the build essential thing, and I have to wait for my laziness to wear off so I can retry compiling espeak ng
@16: I know one doesn't compile bigger c++ programs like that, it's more likely to produce a brain meltdown than any useful results...**goes and tryes this on synthizer, comes back after 20 years with their head top on fire**. However, it comes in useful to read the commands make executed, for example when you're getting linker errors like I still do when I try to compile stuff for android. Of course windows software is portable, but that's because it's a single codebase with huge backwards compatibility, no need to check containers because it's all there. Unless, you know, you run across those ancient programs like some games that either have to run in compatibility mode, or don't work at all, requiring a vm, therefore a kind of container.
for most programs, linux is flexible enough to detect the architecture you're running in, your setup, what libs are where, etc. I hate manually interacting with gnu autotools with a passion, but that was the root of such things. Yes, you mostly have to recompile stuff, do lots of conditional defines in the code or sprinkle your makefile with things that conditionally include code files based on for example, if procfs is enabled, does the kernel have binder support, etc, but that's not so unexpected because each linux distro can be considered its own os with the same kernel. I mean, for better or worse, I compiled synthizer for both ubuntu/debian and arch, it worked in both cases, so the distros either aren't that different or the portability issues are not so bad nowadays unless you either run into weird distros, or things like bsds, or you're doing very low level code where the syscall numbers in the linux kernel are important which is rare. Don't ask me how I know, but you can ask no std rust trying to read command line arguments without being linked to libc, very fun right? In any case, I tryed the same thing with odilia, the same binary worked on both ubuntu and arch once I installed atspi. I mean, I am told this used to be very bad, with bash scripts not being portable, environments changing dramatically from distro to distro, at least I'm glad I don't have to deal with such weird stuff anymore, not yet anyway.
Yeah, and I have gone out of my way to make sure that you can distribute Synthizer binaries on Linux without having to rebuild for every distro. I get it, you like Linux and you haven't done much Windows, but Microsoft rarely if ever breaks things and I don't have to require my users to make sure they have installed 5 dependent packages for my thing to run. nor do I have to worry about default config changes, nonstandard paths, whatever. Yes, sometimes you need a VM, but that's usually for stuff that's more than 10 years old. Windows ends at the containerization solution for things as old as Vista or XP, and only if they did stuff like obscure and undocumented APIs or relying on behaviors they shouldn't, but Linux *starts there*. All windows needs is /MT.
And in fairness Mac has also solved this problem. But Linux just doesn't really care about it, and that's one of the reasons people like Microsoft aren't interested--it's a support nightmare of epic proportions.
Microsoft's Mariner distro is not designed for your average user. It's not really intended to be used on consumer PC's at all.
Microsoft quietly released its own Linux distro, CBL-Mariner, for internal use with cloud- and edge-based projects.
If Microsoft can extinguish Linux, then Linux wasn't worth it in the first place. And no, they won't. They rely on Linux for Azure and junk, so it's not going anywhere. Also yeah WSL GUI isn't accessible, unless you can get Orca working. It's not even good enough for Emacs since it's so unresponsive.
oh well, hope linux is stronger than microsoft
@24 it is going to take a very very long time before the hole planet will switch to Linux. as a matter of fact their is nothing to worry about with MS.
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